Discussion:
Posting Screenshots
(too old to reply)
C. Feldmann
2010-02-19 08:39:49 UTC
Permalink
Hi there,

I was wondering about possible copyright and intellectual property
interests, when posting a screenshot of a website. If one were to post
a screenshot (or a series of i.e. five screenshots) of i.e. the
Microsoft website in the scope of an article with the purpose to
critique (both positive and negative) design-elements would one be
infringing upon copyright or intellectual property issues? Would it
not basically be a citation and thus full under fair use? The goal is
obviously not to "copy" the intellectual property (being the content
of Microsoft's Homepage), but instead to use it as a grounds for
discussion - similar to using a screenshot in a presentation.

Cheers
Casper
McGyver
2010-02-19 20:45:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by C. Feldmann
Hi there,
I was wondering about possible copyright and intellectual property
interests, when posting a screenshot of a website. If one were to post
a screenshot (or a series of i.e. five screenshots) of i.e. the
Microsoft website in the scope of an article with the purpose to
critique (both positive and negative) design-elements would one be
infringing upon copyright or intellectual property issues? Would it
not basically be a citation and thus full under fair use? The goal is
obviously not to "copy" the intellectual property (being the content
of Microsoft's Homepage), but instead to use it as a grounds for
discussion - similar to using a screenshot in a presentation.
The screenshots would be copyright violations.

A picture is not a citation.

The goal obviously would be to "copy" the content within the screenshots.

This answer must not be relied on as legal advice for the reasons posted
here: http://mcgyverdisclaimer.blogspot.com . And I am not your attorney.

McGyver
C. Feldmann
2010-02-20 13:58:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by McGyver
The screenshots would be copyright violations.
A picture is not a citation.
The goal obviously would be to "copy" the content within the screenshots.
This answer must not be relied on as legal advice for the reasons posted
here:  http://mcgyverdisclaimer.blogspot.com.  And I am not your attorney.
McGyver
Hi McGyver,

I am sorry, but I don't really understand why. I agree that posting a
picture (of a person or place) is infringing on the copyright of the
photographer. But making a screenshot of a website is not copying the
website? A website's main functionality and purpose is not only the
optical presentation. It is a complex set of links, information,
downloads, etc. How am I copying that with a screenshot? Then
thumbnails would also be violating copyrights as well, right?
In Europe, where copyright laws are generally much stricter using a
screenshot is not considered a violation, but in turn a citation. Just
like someone taking a camera and taking a picture of a magazine page.
If you were to take pictures of the entire magazine and thus "harm"
publisher's business model - then you would no longer be citing.
Are there any recent court rulings that pertaining to this topic?

Best Regards
Casper
C. Feldmann
2010-02-20 15:10:52 UTC
Permalink
On Feb 20, 2:58 pm, "C. Feldmann" <***@googlemail.com>
wrote:

Just found a link to the subject:
http://lifehacker.com/193343/ask-the-law-geek--is-publishing-screenshots-fair-use

"The purpose and character of the use: Reproduction for purposes such
as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship or
research is not copyright infringement. This probably covers most
blogs and personal websites, but there are other factors to consider."
McGyver
2010-02-20 19:28:42 UTC
Permalink
,,, Snipped the bad answer.
Post by C. Feldmann
Hi McGyver,
I am sorry, but I don't really understand why. I agree that posting a
picture (of a person or place) is infringing on the copyright of the
photographer. But making a screenshot of a website is not copying the
website? A website's main functionality and purpose is not only the
optical presentation. It is a complex set of links, information,
downloads, etc. How am I copying that with a screenshot? Then
thumbnails would also be violating copyrights as well, right?
In Europe, where copyright laws are generally much stricter using a
screenshot is not considered a violation, but in turn a citation. Just
like someone taking a camera and taking a picture of a magazine page.
If you were to take pictures of the entire magazine and thus "harm"
publisher's business model - then you would no longer be citing.
Are there any recent court rulings that pertaining to this topic?
Best Regards
Casper
I think you are right. I did some limited research and found no sources
that directly supported my view and several that supported yours. I
conclude that if your purpose is fair criticism, that purpose is objectively
shown in your website and your copies are not a substantial part of the
website being copied, then you are safe, at least temporarily.

Most of that safety does not come from the legal opinions of two amateurs
(you and me). The safety comes from the fact that Microsoft would almost
certainly not initiate copyright litigation unless you continue to infringe
after receipt of a cease-and-desist letter. The reason is that a "willful
violation" is worth suing over and any other violation is not. So copyright
holders send out demand letters before suing anyone. That makes your
solution easy. Simply dump the website the instant that Microsoft tells you
that you should. Even if you are confident that you are legally safe,
remember that Microsoft has more money for litigation than you do.

If you decide to defend when a lawsuit is threatened, rush to an expert on
copyright law and make sure you are on strong legal ground. If you move
within the number of days that the cease-and-desist letter gave you, you
will have time to respond by either (a) dumping the website and writing to
the Microsoft attorney to tell them that you did, or (b) have your copyright
attorney write to them to explain why you will certainly win if the matter
goes to trial.

By the way, there are copyright experts who watch this board. Be sure to
check back periodically to see if one of them has chimed in.

This answer must not be relied on as legal advice for the reasons posted
here: http://mcgyverdisclaimer.blogspot.com. And I am not your attorney.

McGyver
n***@isp.com
2010-02-20 22:17:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by McGyver
* * * If one were to post a screenshot (or a series
of i.e. five screenshots) of . . . the Microsoft website
in the scope of an article with the purpose to critique
(both positive and negative) design-elements would one
be infringing upon copyright or intellectual property issues?
Would it not basically be a citation and thus full under
fair use?
The goal is obviously not to "copy" the intellectual
property (being the content of Microsoft's Homepage),
but instead to use it as a grounds for discussion - similar
to using a screenshot in a presentation.
The screenshots would be copyright violations.
A picture is not a citation.
The goal obviously would be to "copy" the content within the
screenshots.
This answer must not be relied on as legal advice for the reasons
posted here: http://mcgyverdisclaimer.blogspot.com . And I am
not your attorney.
It is possible that the "McGyver" response could prove to be correct
as a _practical_ matter, if,

OTOH, the OP unilaterally acquiesces in it by refraining
from doing what he had wanted to do (that is, obviously,
he presumably would not be subject to a claim of wrongful
copying/use if he doesn't copy/use) or,

OTOH, _if_ a number of "if"s not yet addressed sufficiently
by the OP were to occur;

but (with all due and genuine respect to "McGyver") that response is
not law-analytically correct because the OP has not posted enough
information to enable an analytically correct evaluation (much less a
real-life answer).

The functional problem is that the OP asks two separate questions but
without anywhere enough (actual or hypothesized) factual context to
enable analysis of the second one yet "McGyver" conclusorily proffers
a singular answer to both.

The analytical problem essentially is that an unstated yet clearly
present assumption of the OP's second question and of the answer
suggested by "McGyver" is that there can be something at least close
to a definitive (analytically "correct") answer to the "fair
use":yes?/no? elements of the OP's query whereas, for real-life
purposes, the actual answer will depend on (what might be any number
of) the here referred to but not by the poster supplied or considered
"if"s. That is:

Regardless whether the OP proposes to copy/use one copyright protected
screen display or five (although his parenthetically stated "or" etc.
leaves unclear what he does propose to do), "McGyver" would have been
correct (essentially by definition) if he had said that copying/use
without the copyright owner's permission presumptively constitutes and
so, if without more, would constitute copyright infringement if the
copyright owner were to make a claim to such effect, and he is correct
to criticize the OP's attempt to rationalize that his "goal' is
"obviously [SIC!?!?] not to 'copy' the" copyright protected work to
which he refers since the OP makes it . . . well, . . . obvious that
his so doing (and hardly merely a "citation") is exactly what he
intends. HOWEVER:

Whether there is or will have been a "fair use" of copyright protected
work such that, if "fair use" is established (an eventuality that
perhaps could be accomplished by the copier being able before or after
the fact to persuade the copyright owner that the use in question is
"fair" in the statutory sense) if the copyright owner learns of the
use and if the owner then makes some sort cease-and-desist claim, then
(only in part by statutory definition and mostly by reason of facts
albeit such "ifs" might include litigation) there will not have been
law redressable copyright infringement.

The core point, in other words, is that both the OP and "McGyver"
(except in the latter case by way of assumption) overlook the role of
_process_ in light of the law-structural fact that a claim of "fair
use" is an _affirmative_ _defense_ to an infringement lawsuit re.
which, as such, the defendant (if sued) has the burden of proof (and,
even if not sued, presumably would have the practical burden of
persuasion by way of request or negotiation).

One who understands this relatedly will understand that the OP's query
is vague/confusing for "fair use":yes?/no? purposes from the very
outset since he does not make clear what it is, exactly, that he
proposes to do including (as noted) not even making clear whether he
contemplates use of only one screen shot or (he says "or") of five as
meanwhile compounding this vagueness by also not reporting how much of
the entire web site in question he proposes to reproduce; yet (as
"McGyver" knows but forgot to mention) one of the core factors
necessary to analyze is, as between the parties, the most credible
answer to the question,

What is the amount and substantiality of
the portion used in relation to the copyrighted
work as a whole?

or, if the parties do not mutually answer that question if an
infringement claim is made, what the court's answer to that question
probably will be.

Further, although he does indicate that he contemplates publishing a
"critique" of some kind "for the purposes of discussion" (by/among
who? in what sorts of media/forum? etc., etc.), the OP does not
provide information that otherwise meaningfully identifies the purpose
and character of the use in real life context and whether the use he
would like to make of the copyright protected work is of a commercial
nature or for nonprofit educational purposes.

And while one can speculate what the copyright owner's contention in
this connection possibly may be, if it learns of then opts to complain
about the OP's copying/use, the OP relegates his posting's readers to
speculation about what he would contend is the effect (or not) of his
copying/use on the existing and potential market for or the value in
some other respect of the copyright protected work (although he does
seem to suggest, albeit also vaguely, that perhaps his copying/use
could have a "positive" such effect).

It may be accurate to guess that if the OP does what he would like to
do in a practical and (as he does indicate is his intent) in a
fair-minded way, he would not be subject to an adverse claim; and it
may also be accurate to guess that, if he does what he has in mind and
is subjected to an adverse claim, he would prevail on "fair use"
grounds (again: perhaps by way of persuasion of and acquiescence in
his use by the copyright owner rather than by having to defend and
prevail in a lawsuit). It is just that his query in the so far
factually skeletal form he posts it relegates a reader to being able
to do no more than guess and yet presumably he does not want to decide
whether or not to copy and use the material in question based merely
on a guess about these matters.

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