Discussion:
Negative option: sharp-practices by bank?
(too old to reply)
A***@gmail.com
2013-11-03 05:24:23 UTC
Permalink
While I started composing this, I remembered that, years ago I had also
emailed a copy to Ms. P. de Lille: a copy of my 'report of how a Sheriff
auction sales in Boksburg had been fraudulently conducted'.
So since you too, had reported your matter to Ms. P. de Lille, did we both
mistakenly think, in those days, that she would do something about the injustice?

This relates to my previous post, about the legal-fora which operate in more
advanced societies, and are better than 'letters to the editor', for citizens
to contribute to societal improvement. Here's an example of how USEnet works:-

Subject: Bank sharp-practices outlawed?

Some time back I read that a UK Court had found the sharp-practice by
Virgin Atlantic as being illegal. VA used to automatically extend the
expired membership of victims. Results could be that when a previous
VA member left the country for 3 years, they would find, on returning
that they had a bill for "3 years services rendered".

Where/how would I find the exact wording of the judgment that outlawed this
sharp practice, and related cases?

Would the following be considered as sharp practice and outlawed?

The bank advertises a '12 months fixed interest product' targeted at senior
citizens.
Since elderly people shouldn't be living from hand to mouth, they shouldn't
need to have set an alarm clock, to warn them of pending maturity dates.

The investment matured in October, and the victim visited the bank on
28 December, and because of the potential problem of Xmas rush time, the
victim put his instructions in writing: one copy to be signed & date stamped
by the bank.

The bank told him that since he had failed to notify the bank in time,
he could not have the money. So the victim said "OK, just sign and stamp
my copy of the instructions", which the bank official hadn't seen before the
verbal refusal, "and we'll resolve this in writing".

Because of the bank's refusal, the victim canceled his arrangements/plans
and suffered consequent damages.

Later he received email correspondence from the bank, with a copy of the
3-and-half A4 pages of small print, listing sections 1 to 21.7: "Terms
and conditions of Investment Account". The email cited S 8.2 "Early
withdrawal penalty fee...".

Although not mentioned in the bank's excuse for refusal to pay out, laborious
examination of the copy of the "Terms and conditions of Investment Account",
shows:
S 20.2 "On maturity of the investment the client should advise the bank in
good time (from at least one month before the expiry date) with regard to
the payment of the capital and/or reinvestment thereof". [sic]

Given that the investment offer was ADVERTISED in the press as a 12 months
'competitive investment product' what are the estopple implications of
forcing the victim to know and understand all the sharp-practice details
of the some (36 * 7= 252) compact-line contract?

"12 months fixed investment" should imply that 'negative option marketting
tricks' will not apply. Or ?

If the 'contract was 252'000 lines instead of 252, would it still be
enforceable?

What about consumer protection legislation - of recent years?

== TIA.
j***@eurthlynk.net
2013-11-03 14:53:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@gmail.com
Subject: Bank sharp-practices outlawed?
Some time back I read that a UK Court had found the sharp-practice by
Virgin Atlantic as being illegal. VA used to automatically extend the
expired membership of victims. Results could be that when a previous
VA member left the country for 3 years, they would find, on returning
that they had a bill for "3 years services rendered".
Where/how would I find the exact wording of the judgment that outlawed this
sharp practice, and related cases?
Would the following be considered as sharp practice and outlawed?
The bank advertises a '12 months fixed interest product' targeted at senior
citizens.
Since elderly people shouldn't be living from hand to mouth, they shouldn't
need to have set an alarm clock, to warn them of pending maturity dates.
The investment matured in October, and the victim visited the bank on
28 December, and because of the potential problem of Xmas rush time, the
victim put his instructions in writing: one copy to be signed & date stamped
by the bank.
The bank told him that since he had failed to notify the bank in time,
he could not have the money. So the victim said "OK, just sign and stamp
my copy of the instructions", which the bank official hadn't seen before the
verbal refusal, "and we'll resolve this in writing".
Because of the bank's refusal, the victim canceled his arrangements/plans
and suffered consequent damages.
Later he received email correspondence from the bank, with a copy of the
3-and-half A4 pages of small print, listing sections 1 to 21.7: "Terms
and conditions of Investment Account". The email cited S 8.2 "Early
withdrawal penalty fee...".
Although not mentioned in the bank's excuse for refusal to pay out, laborious
examination of the copy of the "Terms and conditions of Investment Account",
S 20.2 "On maturity of the investment the client should advise the bank in
good time (from at least one month before the expiry date) with regard to
the payment of the capital and/or reinvestment thereof". [sic]
Given that the investment offer was ADVERTISED in the press as a 12 months
'competitive investment product' what are the estopple implications of
forcing the victim to know and understand all the sharp-practice details
of the some (36 * 7= 252) compact-line contract?
None whatsoever. If the depositor answered the following
questions with additional information not posted and which so far
seems contradicted by the above story, it may be possible but even
then highly unlikely that there could be a different answer:

When bank advertised the availability of the sort of
certificate of deposit or other investment in question, was there
legislation or an authoritative judicial ruling in the jurisdiction
that made unenforceable the terms of a bank deposit-investment
contract printed in the size characterized above as small print or
which included the roll-over or early withdrawal fees in question?

If there was no such legislation or judicial ruling and if
he would claim he had an eyesight limitation that made it impossible
or difficult to read the contract, why did the depositor chose not to
invest in the purchase of a magnifying glass or, failing that, to
arrange with a friend or family member or professional advisor to read
to him the terms of the contract before he deposited-invested or at
the very least at a time comfortable for him before the October
maturity date?

Why did the depositor chose not to cash in the certificate
of deposit or to provide other instructions to the bank on or before
the October maturity date?

Unless the advertisement itself represented to the contrary,
there is no contradiction or even reasonably arguable inconsistency
between a bank advertising that it was offering what it described as a
12 months 'competitive investment product' and that there would be and
are conditions associated with such deposit such as stipulated
limitations of time within which the purchaser of the service shall be
required to act, agreed fees for early withdrawals including for a
withdrawal before the expiration of an agreed roll-over period, and
the like, for that product.
Post by A***@gmail.com
"12 months fixed investment" should imply that 'negative option marketting
tricks' will not apply. Or ?
The story above is significant only insofar as it does not
include any report of contractual language or conduct by the bank that
amounts to a sharp banking practice or even to an occasion to
criticize the bank but that the poster uses these terms anyway and
refers to the obviously indifferent and perhaps outright negligent
depositor as a victim.
Post by A***@gmail.com
If the 'contract was 252'000 lines instead of 252, would it still be
enforceable?
Possibly, no. But, then, if a sparrow had teeth and a large
stomach, possibly it could eat a steak.

Logically irrelevant counter factual questions are logically
irrelevant.
Post by A***@gmail.com
What about consumer protection legislation - of recent years?
If there was consumer protection legislation in the
jurisdiction that applied to the transaction and contract in question
when the bank placed its advertisement and the customer entered into
his contract with the bank, then there would have been consumer
protection legislation that applied to that contract. Otherwise, what
about consumer protection legislation of recent years?
Post by A***@gmail.com
== TIA.
Bill Graham
2013-11-03 23:26:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@eurthlynk.net
Post by A***@gmail.com
Subject: Bank sharp-practices outlawed?
Some time back I read that a UK Court had found the sharp-practice by
Virgin Atlantic as being illegal. VA used to automatically extend the
expired membership of victims. Results could be that when a previous
VA member left the country for 3 years, they would find, on returning
that they had a bill for "3 years services rendered".
Where/how would I find the exact wording of the judgment that
outlawed this sharp practice, and related cases?
Would the following be considered as sharp practice and outlawed?
The bank advertises a '12 months fixed interest product' targeted at
senior citizens.
Since elderly people shouldn't be living from hand to mouth, they
shouldn't need to have set an alarm clock, to warn them of pending
maturity dates.
The investment matured in October, and the victim visited the bank on
28 December, and because of the potential problem of Xmas rush
time, the victim put his instructions in writing: one copy to be
signed & date stamped by the bank.
The bank told him that since he had failed to notify the bank in
time, he could not have the money. So the victim said "OK, just
sign and stamp my copy of the instructions", which the bank
official hadn't seen before the verbal refusal, "and we'll resolve
this in writing".
Because of the bank's refusal, the victim canceled his
arrangements/plans and suffered consequent damages.
Later he received email correspondence from the bank, with a copy of
"Terms
and conditions of Investment Account". The email cited S 8.2 "Early
withdrawal penalty fee...".
Although not mentioned in the bank's excuse for refusal to pay out,
laborious examination of the copy of the "Terms and conditions of
S 20.2 "On maturity of the investment the client should advise the
bank in good time (from at least one month before the expiry date)
with regard to the payment of the capital and/or reinvestment
thereof". [sic]
Given that the investment offer was ADVERTISED in the press as a 12
months 'competitive investment product' what are the estopple
implications of forcing the victim to know and understand all the
sharp-practice details
of the some (36 * 7= 252) compact-line contract?
None whatsoever. If the depositor answered the following
questions with additional information not posted and which so far
seems contradicted by the above story, it may be possible but even
When bank advertised the availability of the sort of
certificate of deposit or other investment in question, was there
legislation or an authoritative judicial ruling in the jurisdiction
that made unenforceable the terms of a bank deposit-investment
contract printed in the size characterized above as small print or
which included the roll-over or early withdrawal fees in question?
If there was no such legislation or judicial ruling and if
he would claim he had an eyesight limitation that made it impossible
or difficult to read the contract, why did the depositor chose not to
invest in the purchase of a magnifying glass or, failing that, to
arrange with a friend or family member or professional advisor to read
to him the terms of the contract before he deposited-invested or at
the very least at a time comfortable for him before the October
maturity date?
Why did the depositor chose not to cash in the certificate
of deposit or to provide other instructions to the bank on or before
the October maturity date?
Unless the advertisement itself represented to the contrary,
there is no contradiction or even reasonably arguable inconsistency
between a bank advertising that it was offering what it described as a
12 months 'competitive investment product' and that there would be and
are conditions associated with such deposit such as stipulated
limitations of time within which the purchaser of the service shall be
required to act, agreed fees for early withdrawals including for a
withdrawal before the expiration of an agreed roll-over period, and
the like, for that product.
Post by A***@gmail.com
"12 months fixed investment" should imply that 'negative option
marketting tricks' will not apply. Or ?
The story above is significant only insofar as it does not
include any report of contractual language or conduct by the bank that
amounts to a sharp banking practice or even to an occasion to
criticize the bank but that the poster uses these terms anyway and
refers to the obviously indifferent and perhaps outright negligent
depositor as a victim.
Post by A***@gmail.com
If the 'contract was 252'000 lines instead of 252, would it still be
enforceable?
Possibly, no. But, then, if a sparrow had teeth and a large
stomach, possibly it could eat a steak.
Logically irrelevant counter factual questions are logically
irrelevant.
Post by A***@gmail.com
What about consumer protection legislation - of recent years?
If there was consumer protection legislation in the
jurisdiction that applied to the transaction and contract in question
when the bank placed its advertisement and the customer entered into
his contract with the bank, then there would have been consumer
protection legislation that applied to that contract. Otherwise, what
about consumer protection legislation of recent years?
Post by A***@gmail.com
== TIA.
This is why people in my age brcket (late 70's) and visually impaired
people, hire investment advisors....

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