The Police Do More Harm Than Good

On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 16:36:09 -0700 (PDT), RGrannus

Post by RGrannus
1. Only about 2% of all violent crimes and less than half of all
murders are solved.

If they solve almost half the murders it's a good thing we have them.

Post by RGrannus
2. The police have little or no significant effect on the overall
crime rate.

Nonsense, without police the crime rate would skyrocket.

Post by RGrannus
3. Many of those convicted and imprisoned are later proven innocent by
DNA or other definitive tests.

So now we can know. In the past we just did the best we could.

Post by RGrannus
4. The police falsify and fabricate evidence to get a conviction in a
large percentage of cases.

Here is a quote from the movie "The Asphalt Jungle":

"We send police assistance to every one of those calls, because they
are not just code numbers on a radio beam, they are cries for help.
People are being cheated, robbed, murdered, raped. And that goes on 24
hours a day, every day of the year. And that's not exceptional, that's
usual. It's the same in every city in the modern world. Suppose we had
no police force, good or bad. Suppose we had, just silence. Nobody to
listen. Nobody to answer. The battle is finished. The jungle wins. The
predatory beasts take over. Think about it."

Post by RGrannus
5. The police get generous pay and benefits and manipulate the system
to get overtime pay or illegal money
6. The police frequently harass, beat, and even kill innocent people.
7. The police often arrest people to make arbitrary quotas
8. Police work is no more dangerous than other common occupations.

pfff

Post by RGrannus
Evidence and examples
Only about 2% of all violent crimes and less than half of all murders
are solved.
Malcolm C Young, Marc Mauer: "...ultimately, only about 2 percent of
violent crimes result in a conviction." ("Tougher Laws Will Not
Prevent Crime." In: _Crime_, P. Winters, ed. San Diego, CA: Greenhaven
Press)
Based on FBI data of the percentage of reported murders for which
someone is arrested and the percentage of those arrested who end up
being convicted, less than half (about 42%) of all murders are ever
solved
In one study, in only 11% of reported cases of sexual assault was
someone convicted (Gray-Eurom K, Seaberg DC, Wears RL: The prosecution
of sexual assault cases: Correlation with forensic evidence. Ann Emerg
Med 2002; 39:39-46.)
The police often quote their "clearance rate," i.e., the percentage of
crimes in which someone was arrested or they "cleared" from their
books for some other reason. Nationwide, by FBI figures for 2009,
47.1 percent of violent crimes and 18.6 percent of property crimes
were "cleared" by arrest or exceptional means. The figures for the
followng crimes are: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter 66.6%,
forcible rape 41.2%, robbery 28.2%, burglary 12.5%, motor vehicle
theft 12.4%, aggravated assault 56.8%.
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/clearances/index.html
However, what they don't tell you is--
1. The clearance rate only refers to the percentage of reported crime
in which someone was arrested or they "cleared" from their books for
some other reason. It says nothing about whether the person was
actually guilty or, if guilty, there was enough evidence to convict.
2. The clearance rate is reported by the police departments
themselves. That's something like having a worker write his own job
evaluation or a student grade his own test. And in fact,
investigations have found that departments routinely inflate their
clearance rates to make themselves look good.
3. The clearance rate refers to the *reported* crimes cleared. Other
studies have found that less than half of all crimes are reported.
That means that the FBI-reported figure of a clearance rate of 66% for
murder translates into actually only about 40% of known murders
actually solved, and that's assuming the person convicted is actually
guilty. Furthermore, many murders are never detected, lowering the
rate still further.
See
https://sites.google.com/site/thepolicedomoreharmthangood/
for the other evidence and examples showing that the police do more
harm than good.

Black people are against the police, because they are on the side of
the criminals.

http://www.ihr.org/ http://www.natvan.com

http://national-socialist-worldview.blogspot.com

Michael Price

2011-09-01 00:14:30 UTC

Post by Topaz
On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 16:36:09 -0700 (PDT), RGrannus

Post by RGrannus
1. Only about 2% of all violent crimes and less than half of all
murders are solved.

If they solve almost half the murders it's a good thing we have them.

Well considering that about half the murders have to do with the
illegal
drug trade and therefore wouldn't happen at all if cops didn't do what
they
do how is it a good thing? They're solving about as many murders as
they
CAUSE. Even this is generous because many of these murders could be
"solved" by almost anyone. A bloodstained abusive husband and a dead
wife with his baseball bat beside her don't require Sherlock Holmes.

Post by RGrannus
2. The police have little or no significant effect on the overall
crime rate.

Nonsense, without police the crime rate would skyrocket.

How do you know? Is that based on any evidence at all?

Post by RGrannus
3. Many of those convicted and imprisoned are later proven innocent by
DNA or other definitive tests.

So now we can know. In the past we just did the best we could.

No "we" did not. The police have often done far worse than even
people of below average intelligence could do. For instance the Troy
Davis case. Given the almost complete lack of accountability there is
little reason to believe Police even want to do the best they can, let
alone that they do.

Post by RGrannus
4. The police falsify and fabricate evidence to get a conviction in a
large percentage of cases.

"We send police assistance to every one of those calls, because they
are not just code numbers on a radio beam, they are cries for help.
People are being cheated, robbed, murdered, raped. And that goes on 24
hours a day, every day of the year. And that's not exceptional, that's
usual. It's the same in every city in the modern world. Suppose we had
no police force, good or bad. Suppose we had, just silence. Nobody to
listen. Nobody to answer. The battle is finished. The jungle wins. The
predatory beasts take over. Think about it."

And yet when anarchy does happen like in colonial Pennsylvania,
medieval
Iceland or post-civil-war Somalia things get mroe Peaceful not less.
In fact
the most vicious examples of the predatory beasts taking over happen
when
there are powerful and unaccountable police forces.

pfff

Look it up, it's safer than construction, piloting or even fishing in
some areas.

Black people are against the police, because they are on the side of
the criminals.
http://www.ihr.org/ http://www.natvan.com
http://national-socialist-worldview.blogspot.com

Topaz

2011-09-02 01:03:12 UTC

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:14:30 -0700 (PDT), Michael Price

Post by Michael Price
Well considering that about half the murders have to do with the
illegal
drug trade and therefore wouldn't happen at all if cops didn't do what
they
do how is it a good thing?

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/CHING/OPIUM.HTM
Growing opium in India, the East India Company shipped tons of opium
into Canton which it traded for Chinese manufactured goods and for
tea. This trade had produced, quite literally, a country filled with
drug addicts, as opium parlors proliferated all throughout China in
the early part of the nineteenth century... The effects on Chinese
society were devastating. In fact, there are few periods in Chinese
history that approach the early nineteenth century in terms of pure
human misery and tragedy. In an effort to stem the tragedy, the
imperial government made opium illegal in 1836 and began to
aggressively close down the opium dens.

Post by Michael Price
They're solving about as many murders as
they
CAUSE. Even this is generous because many of these murders could be
"solved" by almost anyone. A bloodstained abusive husband and a dead
wife with his baseball bat beside her don't require Sherlock Holmes.

Police are needed to bring the criminals into the jails.

Post by Michael Price

Post by Topaz
Nonsense, without police the crime rate would skyrocket.

How do you know? Is that based on any evidence at all?

Common sense

Post by Michael Price
No "we" did not. The police have often done far worse than even
people of below average intelligence could do. For instance the Troy
Davis case. Given the almost complete lack of accountability there is
little reason to believe Police even want to do the best they can, let
alone that they do.

Obviously we are all safer and have better lives because the bad
people worry about the police.

Post by Michael Price
And yet when anarchy does happen like in colonial Pennsylvania,
medieval
Iceland or post-civil-war Somalia things get mroe Peaceful not less.
In fact
the most vicious examples of the predatory beasts taking over happen
when
there are powerful and unaccountable police forces.

In your fantasy world

Post by Michael Price
Look it up, it's safer than construction, piloting or even fishing in
some areas.

You probably didn't look it up either.

http://www.ihr.org/ http://www.natvan.com

http://national-socialist-worldview.blogspot.com

jigo

2011-09-02 00:08:53 UTC

Post by Topaz
On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 16:36:09 -0700 (PDT), RGrannus

Post by RGrannus
1. Only about 2% of all violent crimes and less than half of all
murders are solved.

If they solve almost half the murders it's a good thing we have them.

That means you have a better than average chance of literally "getting
away with murder." You consider that a good thing? I would expect a
rather better job performance from supposed professionals. If a doctor
helped only half his patients, a teacher taught half his or her
students, a contractor did only half his jobs right, it certainly would
not be considered competent performance.

Post by RGrannus
2. The police have little or no significant effect on the overall
crime rate.

Nonsense, without police the crime rate would skyrocket.

You didn't read the evidence. Several studies by criminologists showed
that the police have no significant effect on the crime rate.

Post by RGrannus
3. Many of those convicted and imprisoned are later proven innocent by
DNA or other definitive tests.

So now we can know. In the past we just did the best we could.

Which wasn't very good and showed that the police fabricated and
falsified evidence to get convictions. Who knows how many innocent
people are in prison now because we don't have DNA evidence or
videotapes of what happened.

Post by RGrannus
4. The police falsify and fabricate evidence to get a conviction in a
large percentage of cases.

A quote from a movie can hardly be considered evidence.

pfff

Not a very enlightening response.

Black people are against the police, because they are on the side of
the criminals.

Black people tend to mistrust the police because the police are
constantly harassing them, and they see first-hand every day how the
police mistreat citizens and lie about their behavior. Just recently a
cop in New York revealed how they were pressured to make a quota of
stops and arrests every shift. And of course they mainly targeted
minority groups to meet their quotas.

Topaz

2011-09-02 01:19:16 UTC

Post by Topaz
If they solve almost half the murders it's a good thing we have them.

That means you have a better than average chance of literally "getting
away with murder." You consider that a good thing?

It's better than the 100% chance you would get without police.

Post by jigo
I would expect a
rather better job performance from supposed professionals. If a doctor
helped only half his patients, a teacher taught half his or her
students, a contractor did only half his jobs right, it certainly would
not be considered competent performance.

Maybe the "half the cases" thing is a lot of bull anyway. And a lot of
people die even having a doctor.

Post by Topaz
Nonsense, without police the crime rate would skyrocket.

You didn't read the evidence. Several studies by criminologists showed
that the police have no significant effect on the crime rate.

You mean I didn't read a lot of BS.

Post by jigo
Which wasn't very good and showed that the police fabricated and
falsified evidence to get convictions. Who knows how many innocent
people are in prison now because we don't have DNA evidence or
videotapes of what happened.

We should be as tough on criminals as they are on us. We have trials
and things to try not to wrongly convict.

Post by Topaz
"We send police assistance to every one of those calls, because they
are not just code numbers on a radio beam, they are cries for help.
People are being cheated, robbed, murdered, raped. And that goes on 24
hours a day, every day of the year. And that's not exceptional, that's
usual. It's the same in every city in the modern world. Suppose we had
no police force, good or bad. Suppose we had, just silence. Nobody to
listen. Nobody to answer. The battle is finished. The jungle wins. The
predatory beasts take over. Think about it."

A quote from a movie can hardly be considered evidence.

Niether can a quote from you in your post.